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Discussion in 'Delta | SkyMiles' started by rwoman, Mar 20, 2012.
Thanks, mtkeller, for posting a sample fare on FT.
Not a fan...
Makes for some interesting reading!
For those who want to see it in action, DTW-MCO 25-26 April 2012.
I guess the upside is that they started using E fares quite a while ago, and it took this long for them to roll out the restrictions. Maybe the rumored changes to SkyPesos will be delayed similarly so that we can all cash out before the devaluation that makes the Avios situation look pleasant.
Well, at least you still get complimentary peanuts. As a 1K, even I don't get that when I sit in E+ on UA.
Still, I think this had to be expected at some point. No changes at all? No refunds at all? Even after paying penalty fees? I guess it depends on how much the discount is and whether you still earn just as many miles. In four years as an elite traveler I've never had to cancel or change one of my own trips except for instances due to weather and mechanical issues when waivers were granted, so to be fair to DL, I think there is demand for something like this.
I don't see that working out very well.
The savings for the sample fare? $12 r/t vs. L outbound and T return. (YBMHQKLUTE is the DL hierarchy for MPers not familiar.)
Haha, I just read the FT thread and noticed the terms include a part that says: "Trade up to Economy Class for only $6.00 more per person each way"
Apparently you can now trade UP to economy class. It is no longer the bottom. So if economy is cattle class, does this mean basic economy is slug class? What's the new derogatory term going to be?
Why would anyone take these restrictions for a savings of $6 per flight? I would think the ability to choose seats ahead of time would be worth at least that alone.
DL Fare Info & Ticket Rules...includes various What if/is...Basic Economy answers...
Penny pinching kettles?
Any idea when this is rolling out?
It's out...now bookable on dl.com.
I think I'm with you. I have never had to change or cancel a personal flight. There is a slight chance that I will have to do it for the first time next month, but I had bought travel insurance for this trip because it required full prepayment of cruise fare in addition to the airfare--although it's actually an award booking anyway, so I would have only been out the redeposit fee in the worst case. This is a thankfully rare circumstance for me and my wife involving a major injury and lengthy rehab/recovery. I'm risk averse, so I'd probably spring for the economy fare if it really is just $6 more, but I can see a market for this fare type. It's not that horrific. People have been willing to fly Airtran with no seat assigned until checkin and to fly Southwest with no seat assignment at all.
Until now, my expectations of DL differed from that of LCC's...with this change, I think they just moved closer to it...
I haven't checked fares, but it sounds like a discount for a middle seat at the back of the plane.
I haven't sat at the back of the plane since the NW days when you could play what Mrs DTWBOB and I call "grab a flight" -- i.e. you finish your biz trip early, go to the airport and ask if you could fly standby and didn't have to be elite to do so.
Fair enough (fare enough? ... But I think what I'm keeping in mind--for now anyway--is that this is one fare class amongst a lot of other fare classes.
Now, if they go to the LCC/Southwest model of award redemptions based on cost of the ticket instead of a chart like they have now, I'll be quite annoyed and will work on earning miles elsewhere, even if it means that I guarantee a connection somewhere vs. non-stop on DL.
Simply a back door method of imposing a fee for seat selection. The supplemental fee is for "trading up in class" masquerading as the ability to select your seat.
This says it all
Yep. I flew with a coworker a few months ago who didn't even select her seat online. We went to the airport, checked in and she was clueless. It doesn't even occur to these people.
I was upgraded, lol
I wish they weren't so clueless. It would give me a better idea of just how oversold the flight was and if I could get a bump!
Some just don't get it...although I think one of my nieces is highly likely to learn to play the FF game...she's quite obsessed with travel.
Yup, DL moving closer and closer to FR. At least with FR, I have the EU regulations protecting me if things go wrong.
I find it interesting that they show to the far right as opposed to the far left, being the first thing folks say. And now we understand why they switched it to a tile display on fares.
It makes sense though targeting the Florida crowd. I bet these E fares are pushed to NYC and BOS southbound departures for weekend fares.
I thought it was just FCM, but wait there's more!
This is exactly why them being clueless has no effect on you getting a bump or not. Inventory management is at play here; not the fullness of the seat map Inventory still reflects that the person has a purchased seat.
This is also why everyone says on here and FT not to trust the seat map - it's utterly unreliable in telling you how full a flight is.
Use EF for better bump opportunities. But you know all of this....
Because most people don't know the restrictions. 99% of people buy flights based on price and price only. Schedule can sometimes play into it as well but most people want the rock bottom price. And they have no clue what restrictions come with it.
What's killing me about these fares is that advanced seat selection isn't available for elites either. This is just another way to monetize the already high-revenue producing elite ranks of DL. We'll have to pay at least the $6 to "upgrade to economy class" just to get a seat assignment.
I'm also curious if these flights will soon not earn 100% EQM. I'm going to bet yes but maybe not right now. Maybe in 2013. The table at the top only references "Redeemable award miles".
All these are an indication that we should use up our miles and stop worrying about status as soon as possible.
Not how things normally work, but that's why I'm imagining an alternative universe. I think that if people did reliably select seats, then the seat map would be a very useful indicator (imperfect, but useful). If there are 60 seats in Y and 57 of them are taken, then there are three people who can still get on the airplane. But if revenue management still shows six seats available in the Y bucket, now we know there is an overbooking scenario possible. They assume three people will not show up. If I see this scenario on Monday, and on Wednesday the seatmap shows full and that Y bucket is down to 0, I assume they have oversold by three.
Of course, they could arbitrarily reduce the number of seats available for sale, but if they were willing to assume three people wouldn't show on Monday, I think the same would be true on Wednesday.
Don't forget the other side of the problem that you haven't even brought up yet. Almost all airlines still block economy seats for airport assignment only. These will show as blocked on the seat map. So your "Y=6, seat map = 3" scenario just went out the window, too.
I completely understand what you're saying but, unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. This is what makes part of flying frequently fun and why VDB's are even sweeter. The more surprised I am when I can volunteer and get a VDB the better it is, IMO.
It won't stay at $6 per flight. Once the program is accepted the company can begin to test the elasticity of customer propensity to pay. SN has this type of arrangement in Europe now- and the difference started out to be very small, and now can be 150 EUR per leg.
If the seat map is already showing no seats available for selection, then getting a discount for having the seat assigned at the airport might make sense. However, I wonder whether E fares are eligible for OLCI or if they literally mean seats "at the airport" rather than "at check in."
Actually, all major airlines have done extensive analysis about predicting no shows and, in fact, it does depend on the day of the week as well as time of day, season, route, etc.
I wonder what happens to an Elite on and E fare in a IROP situation?
Good point - perhaps the DM desk cannot help us and it'd have to be at the airport...?
There *could* be an upside here. VDB might be more profitable if your an an extremely cheap MR type fare.
I see another problem with this fare -- what happens if you have a couple of young children traveling with one parent and they get assigned to seats in different parts of the plane.
Can anyone imagine what flights to/from MCO will be like if there are several cases like this?
Anybody want play musical seats on a plane?
Unfortunately, that situation happens already anyway. As mentioned up thread, there are a shocking number of people who don't select their seats even when they're entitled to. There are also a pretty good number of people who book last minute and don't have any good seat options to keep their family together.
I agree with all of this but this is why we have ticketing and gate agents to resolve these issues. I really don't think it's a big deal.
This is the feedback I received from DL customer service regarding seat assignment on E fares:
Keep in mind we are now paying for a SPECIFIC seat on anything but an E fare. This is going to create a whole new sub-species of DYKWIA!
I wonder if you still get the Monday middle seat bonus? This seems a guaranteed way to get that coveted bonus.
Please let me know the first time you miss a connection because the flight was delayed getting the families with small kids and no advanced seat reservations situated.
BTW, I never thought I would say it, but given all the changes WN is being to look to me and the last time I flew with them was during the NW strike. It was surreal being at DTW during the day in good weather and having very, very few planes moving!