Myths/Misconceptions Vs Facts

http://milepoint.com/forums/posts/145343/

Tom, just in case you didn't see my post on the other thread I link it here for your edification. It appears that web scraping as unethical and dishonest as you seem to believe has commercial interest from software developers which means there must be reasonable interest from the general population. Might that be so. I hope IMH, the penguin and the band of holier than thou types read the post as well

I am not saying that KVS web scrapes, just that it appears to be a legitmate method of getting information from the web. it would aslo appear that if those with so called copyrights on their material want to protect it they would need anti web scraping software. Viasti does this bring me back into your intellectual fold?

Not wanting to make things even worse for those sites has, I believe, been one reason for several people to hold back on publishing too much detail here. I think enough has been shared, however, to allow anyone who's interested to see what's going on. And of course it's touching to see KVS's concern about others potentially abusing the sources he taps into.

Pizzaman: After an overnight break from the thread, as you requested... I suspect I'm not alone in feeling that nothing really constructive is likely to happen here without some kind of intervention from HOM.

MiPo should not be supporting KVS by allowing him to market his program to members as if it were a legitimate commercial product. The threads here have opened my eyes to the fact that it clearly isn't.

I don't want to spend my time on MiPo scrapping, but nor do I want to just "let it go" and see others deceived as I was.

OOPS we seem to have obtained a moderator

Not constructive but quite like reading the "funny papers" on Sundays many years ago

Randy should just call a spade a spade

Deceived? WOW.....you are way out there and wrong. Hardly anyone cares about how the content arrives except for a few hypocritical "purists".

I pay for a legitimate service and get results..I am not deceived at all.

Sure hope you get the "service" without paying a "contribution"

for ALL the great PR work you are doing (as well as a stipend)

I guess its too hard a concept for some here to understand that liking something and helping promote it is a good thing. Then there are those who like to spread dung like they are in a pig sty.

I'm not so sure that's true. And if it is then there should be no reason to hide what the actual underpinnings of the software are, right? After all, hardly anyone cares.

Instead any attempt to explain and expose the questionable business practices is met with obfuscation, dissimulation and outright lies.

I have no problem with people liking the software and what it does for them. It can be a very useful tool. But I believe that people should have the opportunity to know what the software actually is doing and to be able to judge for themselves if they want to support that sort of enterprise or not as the practice is at least questionable IMO.

What are the questionable business practices you keep referring to?

Mostly it is presenting the data as proprietary, licensed or otherwise paid for when it is not. There are a few other things out there, too, but that's the main one.

Again, if - as you claim - most folks do not care about that sort of thing then there should be no problem in coming clean, right?

I don't think you know that at all. I showed some scraping software, and I'm not suggesting he scrapes, on a post a couple of days ago that sells for a pretty penny. I also know virtually no software just gets installed and turned on for users.
I think you're the one that needs to come clean

We don't want you to spend your time on MilePoint scrapping, either. There's a respectful way to have this discussion and express your frustration/concern. That's what we want to stick to. It's perfectly fine to disagree, just not fine turn the page to sarcasm and rhetoric.

Some posts in this thread have disappeared. More may disappear in the future. That's definitely not what we're hoping for here. Nobody's telling you to leave it alone. Just asking you to voice your concerns in a respectful manner.

What don't I know at all? That folks do not care where the data comes from? That was your claim, not mine. Or that the data is not paid for or licensed? That I absolutely know for a fact.

I saw the link you shared a few days ago. Based on the history of the KVS tool and my analysis of its behavior I'm quite confident in my claim that such a 3rd party tool is not used and that the "user agent" browsing and reformatting to display a series of webpages as a single screen in the KVS interface is all home-grown. I'm willing to be shown that I am wrong by an official representative from the company, but I actually know a decent amount about what's going on behind the scenes of the software and I'm pretty confident in my analysis and claims.

To what? I have been 100% up-front and open about my claims here, with specific examples of what I believe to be less than reasonable practices. The responses to my claims have not been. I believe that speaks volumes. I'm not expecting KVS to share the source code for the tool or even to share all the sources used. But acknowledging that the sources are just a bunch of free websites that are being repackaged and repurposed through the "user agent" would go a long way towards an frank and honest discussion about what is going on here.

Your belief that KVS uses unreasonable practices? You are now judge and jury?
I continue to believe that you are not able, other than in your own mind, to judge his business model as basically illegal. And, I continue to think you have ulterior motives in your so called quest for the "truth".

In reality he is, if nothing else, creative in building a revenue driven tool for people to use as an easier method to search for flights and I think that creates envy of some sort,whether professional or personal.
I have been involved in several intellectual property/patent suits on behalf of others in my consulting practice and I don't see an issue here with the KVS tool.

Why not charge a one time fee instead?
It has been proven here that his sources are free, and he has put in the time to develop a "web browser" to display everything in one place so it would be fair for him to expect compensation for his time. The problem occurs when sources change or get shut down.. He then has to spend time re developing the application so it keeps working.

He charges me a one time fee; its good for a year and I get good value out of it using the tool almost daily.
Besides a one time fee per use would be too cumbersome for almost any site that operates as a web tool.

You pay, you get a key for the software that does not expire. It is so complicated that it can't be done, then again KVS would find a way to blame Microsoft and the OS and their time and data function.

Now we get to your real point

If it was a one-time fee then it wouldn't expire. Instead you have a recurring subscription model.

You are free to your opinion as well, though I do believe that I have more facts backing up my version, namely that I know the data being accessed doesn't cost KVS anything and that the T&Cs of some of the websites certainly make the way it is being displayed questionable. Neither you nor I know for certain whether it is definitely illegal and we probably never will because it will probably never go to trial. Still, a frank and open discussion of the topic does not seem unreasonable, particularly in a thread devoted to uncovering the "myths" surrounding the product.

You still have not identified any possible benefit that I get personally from sharing the information I have. What's my personal gain? Nothing. Not a single thing.

I'm sorry you are suffering such envy.

I'm not.

That doesn't mean there isn't one. There is certainly room for multiple points of view on the topic, isn't there?

Oh, and you can add me to the list of folks to whom an offer has been made of a complimentary "upgrade" of my version to stifle my negative feedback on the tool. Turns out that my integrity isn't for sale.

My real point, what does that even mean? No wonder you thought you had to buy an iPod to get iTunes.

I think his commissary account is full

I edited my post because I don't want to offend anyone

We should start a thread where people can post what deal they were offered by KVS to keep quiet.

I'm a supporter and I was offered the same commercial discount;

Good folks!

I've read through most of this thread and am finding the discussion really frustrating. I

Perhaps it's just me, but it feels as though the thread made its point several days ago. And that there are several people on all sides that continue to argue without really adding anything new to the discussion. Maybe there are additional nuances to the discussion, but on the whole it feels like a rehash that is getting increasingly personal.

"The dead horse continues to be beaten." Which is ok in and of itself, but I worry about the residual anger and unpleasantness that members are building amongst themselves, and I think about these thnigs not just in terms of the participatns in the thread but about the many more people who simply stumble onto the thread and feel like they aren't welcome to share their opinions because they might get flamed. And that's the real worry.

Some folks have expressed their concerns, that KVS Tool accesses free services that are available to people who know where to look. Some people feel that KVS ought to be more transparent about where the data is coming from, or that it's inappropriate to pull data from some sources. KVS and other members have offered their takes on these concerns.

With full disclosure, I use the tool, a lot. But I think that's beside the point, people can make their own decisions about whether or not they wish to based on the arguments that have already been expressed here.

I just don't like to see what started out as a reasonable conversation turn into a vendetta of sorts.

Can we just leave the arguments that have been made as... having been made? And new experiences, thoughts, concerns, and posts by others with their own take that haven't expressed themselves here might get a chance to rise to the top for awhile?

Just my nickel's worth of free advice, one which I'm more certain than not in this case might have some merit, and one which I'm hoping that folks following this thread might heed.

Thanks,
Gary