SPG used to be a leader, but now they are not. What happened? How to fix it?

Ric's article is comparing base point earning across the various chains, and I think it is a reasonable comparison, and yes, it does not take into account bonus point opportunities. But it does show that without lucrative bonus point opp. that SPG cannot ever be competitive and that the aspirational categories are way out of whack there. That was the point. It might be nice to see some more detailed comparisons between Hyatt and Starwood including recent bonus opportunities. Are you willing to do it as detailed as Ric does?

For example, right now the only bonus opportunity at SPG is 2x base points plus a 500 point bonus for weekend stays at participating properties (plus we all get amenity bonuses, if we chose it, at lots of programs.) By historical standards, this is a pretty weak bonus, IMO and not as lucrative as Hyatt's usual G* bonuses.

The other programs have not just caught up, IMO, they caught up and passed SPG and left it in the dust. Those high cat properties at SPG will remain aspirational for me, because the value is just never there to redeem at any of them, at least for me. The Cat 4/5 properties tend to fit my value proposition for redemption.

And while we are here, I'm noticing the C&P availability at desirable properties is drying up. Check NYC, for example. (just another observation, nothing to do with your reply.)


-David

If that was the point, it was not emphasized. The main points that I conclude are that it's very expensive to earn expensive rooms on base points alone, it's pointless for frequent travelers to compare programs on base points alone, and elite/bonus point opportunities are critical components for judging and selecting each program.

No, probably not anytime soon. There are numerous others who are more knowledgeable about the Hyatt program than me.

Well, I think base points are a good barometer for comparing programs, but you are right in that you can't do it just by base points alone.

But for comparison purposes it makes perfect sense because programs can and definitely do throttle bonus opportunities based on where they think their business is. Right now they think they are entering a period of high demand, so bonuses are declining. And even during the decline, SPG is not offering the best bonus opportunities now now were they offering them last year either. Sure, that's subjective, and I'll leave it to people like Ric G to prove it, if they decide to do that analysis. (But I definitely think he is 100% accurate about the aspirational properties and high point requirements of the high end SPG award categories. Unfortunately, they will remain aspirational for me.)

But, don't forget, as I said in the first post in this thread, I'm not giving up on SPG yet. I am steering more of my stays to Hyatt but I am still going to try to requal for SPG plat this year.

-David

As I said in my initial post, what works best for some, may not work best for others. You have just proved my point by illustrating how the two programs work, or don't work, for you. My experience, needs & expectations are different. Hyatt, for example, isn't even an option where I often need to go.

I do believe your comment - "you end up never redeeming your hard earned points for something really nice" - is a gross exaggeration though. I redeem my SPG points for something "really nice" on a regular basis. Again, we all have different ideas of what constitutes "really nice". So I totally disagree with such a sweeping statement.

Cheers,

Flews, after reading and re-reading all your posts in this thread, I have no idea what you are saying. You said you agreed with Gary's post (but not with anybody elses?), Gary said a lot of the same things I said, he just said it more eloquently. And if you agree with what Gary said, then why are you arguing with Tommy? He pretty much said the same thing also.

Nobody is trying to convince you to change programs. This is about SPG's decline relative to other programs that have caught up and passed SPG, while SPG has remained stagnant. Most of us that have posted still like SPG, but we would like to see them fix the program so they are leaders once again. Many of us are steering business to other programs because of SPG's relative decline, yet we are trying to maintain top tier with SPG at the same time.

If you aren't, that's great. Nobody is asking you to do that. If SPG works great for you, fine. If you don't think the program has declined relative to other programs, then that is worth posting.

-David

I used to always go out of my way to stay at a *wood hotel. I dont anymore. I do tend to make it to Plat each year. I do miss the days when you could stay at the St. Regis in NY for 10,000 points/night. I am staying at more Hiltons this year to see how they compare.

Although Plat is the real deal with SPG, it seems there is a devaluation of the elite ranks at the Gold level. At other websites, one can easily find the code that is given to Amex Platinum charge card members which is supposed to be relayed to SPG for a comp bump in status. There is no checking going on - CSRs are immediately upgrading these folks. Arguments can be made that if they are not staying at the hotels anyway, what difference is the fact that they have the status (and I understand and agree) but maybe they take your preferred room one trip, or cause you to wait on hold an extra 5 minutes when calling the elite line. With a lot of similarities between loyalty programs, it's the little things that make the difference these days and I think this is one way that SPG dropped the ball - but can improve!

They seem to be the worst in handing out upgrades.

I stay at Starwood properties because I like the location and I know that the physical quality of the property will generally meet certain standards. I also happen to like Westin properties for things like the Heavenly Bed and that green leaf of soap; it's comforting to walk into a room and know what you'll be getting.

I am less enamoured with SPG as a frequent guest program. In no particular order:

- I don't mind that Club Access, breakfast etc is a Platinum-only privilege. I do think though that Gold as well as Platinum should get free in-room internet. Internet access is a basic thing these days. Just as we expect a decent desk in the room with easily accessible electrical outlets, it's reasonable to expect free internet. If I can get free internet in a roadside hotel that costs less than $100 / night, I should get free internet as a frequent guest at a much higher-end hotel chain.

- SPG is inconsistent. Sometimes I see the Green Program (500 points for every day you don't get your room cleaned) sometimes I don't. Sometimes these points post, sometimes they don't. Sometimes hotels participate in bonus programs, sometimes they don't. And as I just discovered, sometimes hotels participate in SPG and sometimes they don't! (For example, the Westin in Dubai does not participate in SPG.) So is SPG just this optional thing for Westin / Sheraton etc?

- Sticking with the inconsistencies for a moment: I considered booking a meeting at 4 different SPG properties. (For various reasons I ended up choosing a completely different property.) Out of interest I asked if there were any SPG benefits. I got 4 very different answers. Once again I'm left with the uneasy feeling that SPG is just this add-on optional extra that a hotel may or may not choose to use.

- I earn SPG Gold the hard way. It does seem though that Gold is a level that's given away with increasing frequency. I find this annoying.

- On the whole, I find that SPG just hasn't kept pace with the times. With Hilton for example, I earn Hilton points and I earn airlines (AC) points as well. That's innovative.

If SPG is to be a program that entices me to stay at a Starwood property versus anyone else, then SPG must do so in convincing fashion. Firstly I would like to see more consistency. To have a strong hotel chain, it is necessary these days to have a strong frequent guest program too. Sheraton clearly understands their physical property needs. They've booted hotels from the chain because they didn't come up to snuff. They're building new properties in cities and areas where people like us will want to stay. Westin on the other hand is theoretically a notch above Sheraton but increasingly this distinction is becoming blurry. How about addressing that through SPG? We could have different recognitions as well as different redemption rates between the two chains for example. (In theory, superior service and other offerings at Westin would offset the difference.)

I also fail to see how a Westin, Le Meridien or any other part of Starwood could possibly choose to not participate in SPG. If they're not in SPG, they just shouldn't be in Starwood. It's as simple as that.

On another board, some people have posted that they'd dearly like to see a level above Platinum. These people generally far exceed the 25 stays / 50 night threshold. I don't disagree. OTOH, with Gold being given away almost freely one could argue that level below is also required. What I'd like to see then, is a Silver level with a 5 stay / 5 night requirement. This level can be given away freely. Benefits of Silver? How about 20% extra SPG points and 1 free bottle of water? SPG could then move Gold Benefits to include 2 free bottles of water and free internet (and keep the 50% bonus points). Platinum could move up to 35 stays / 60 nights but the benefits could also move as well. I've heard that the suite upgrade is spotty sometimes - this could be firmed up with suite guaranteed at time of booking (assuming one is available of course). Ditto the Platinum gift. Platinums could also get a slight discount on redemptions / be kept immune from peak period nonsense.

On the whole, Starwood properties are good and they continue to maintain their status. But SPG is increasingly an afterthought that no one seems to be in charge of. This is fixable.

Does the will exist to fix it?

Many of my thoughts as well.

As a leisure traveler, many of the hotels I stay at have their Regency/Grand Clubs closed on weekends. That's an easy 2500 points into my account. Add in the 1000 point bonus and quite a few hotels I stay at are also G2 bonuses and I can easily bank home around 7000 points on a moderately inexpensive one-night stay - nearly enough for a Category 2 hotel. For three stays, it's one night in a top-level Hyatt hotel.

Even comparing the top-tier welcome amenity - 5 stays at a Hyatt gets me 5k points, or a Cat 1. I need 6 of those as a SPG Plat to get a weekend Cat 2 (I find SPG's lack of properties in Cat 1 to make it relatively worthless to me). Even going up the chain - 8 stays versus 14 for the next level up, 12 versus 20, etc. As a Hyatt Diamond staying about 25 stays a year (pretty much all at FS Hyatts), I earn 25k points a year in 1W - enough for a top-tier room. The same amount of stays at a SPG would net 12.5k; enough for a Cat 5 (nice, but not the same).

The free full breakfast for Hyatt Diamonds when no lounge is available is a great benefit. Again, as I said - many of the times I don't get to use the club (either no club, or it's closed; I actually get to have lounge breakfast maybe 30% of the time). It's nice to have a full breakfast gratis, as these are much better than what is offered in any hotel lounge I've been to.

Sorry if I'm not being clear. All I am saying is to each their own. Program satfisfaction is very subjective. So like Gary I agree SPG is good but could be better. And, unlike Tommy, I don't agree it's impossible to book a great stay on points, or that free breakfasts are necessarily few and far between. That's all I was trying to say. Really.

Cheers,

Thank you, Flews, that clarifies it and makes a lot more sense now.

-David

All in all the only way for us to be satisfied is if SPG offers us more benefits? Right?

Isn't that the case for everything?

I don't think it's a question of offering more benefits for the sake of offering more benefits. Rather, it's a question of evolving the program to stay competitive relative to other programs while still giving the frequent guest a sense of being appreciated commensurate with the level of business being brought to the chain.

Even so.... I still think SPG is one of the best hotel reward programs.

It really depends what countries and regions you travel to.

My biggest complaint is that because SPG gives away Gold Status to anyone and everyone, there are no real benefits for it except the late checkout- perhaps SPG could ALSO give status by spend as Hilton does?

To those that have fallen away from SPG, which hotel reward program do you now prefer?

@RCYYZ, have you tried Hilton's program at all. If you reach the Gold level, you get free internet access, a room upgrade(executive floor if available), and a free breakfast. If you apply for the AMEX Surpass card, you get HHonors Gold free for the first year. The place where Hilton shines is at their international properties which are quite a contrast from their US brands in the states.

I hear most often about Hyatt. As an SPG Plat that has experience many of the frustrations aired on this threat, I find myself thinking of switching too. Has anyone made the switch? If so, any regrets?

I have been SPG plat for 6 years, I sampled Hyatt starting last year and now I am also Diamond with them. I still have both programs so I can't really say I have regrets. I do like the confirmed suites from Hyatt and the level of attention some Hyatts give to Diamond.

Hyatt is great- however in Europe the Hyatt properties are scarce and where available usually quite expensive (very difficult to get Milano under 500 EUR, same with Park Hyatt Paris etc)

I would disagree.

Perhaps in flexibility of redemption, but not in earning, and certainly not in customer service.

We've seen massive devaluation in SPG points in the last 10 years. It's virtually impossible to earn enough for a week stay @ their top resorts. Where as with all other programs, its doable with any semblance of travel. Who can spend 70,000 points a night on a room? Sure.. the room would be a 1000$ or more if you paid, but SO WHAT?? Many of the suites I've stayed in, both in Asia and in Europe were worth much more and they were Cat 5 or 6 redemptions.

Somewhere along the way, Starwood became less about making the customer happy and more about making the hotels happy.

They allow hotels to 'opt out' or participate selectively, they allow, 'we have no suites available' to continue, whilst they exist to be booked online, and when called on it, they make some lame excuse.

Simply, Starwood management no longer has the balls, or the desire to operate anything other than a booking agency for a collection of hotels.

My issue with Starwood, as others have mentioned, is one of a lack of predictability. With Hyatt, I know and value exactly what I get - breakfast, internet, an upgrade to a nicer room, suite upgrades on paid stays, etc. With Starwood, the biggest perk is suite upgrades on award stays (and they have been incredible over the years) but it seems they are the biggest bone of contention - being told there are no suites when they are clearly still available on-line, having to call the Platinum Concierge to force the hotel to give you what you are entitled to, etc.

A bigger issue, now that Hyatt has a Visa, is that the highest level Hyatt costs 33,000 points per night for a SUITE! Starwood is at least 60,000. The biggest downside of Hyatt is that their coverage is so much less than Starwood.

My take is that these things are fluid. Starwood is not stupid. Yes they follow these boards but they also watch what is happening with their business. If they see people moving away for the reasons we have been discussing, I have no doubt they will react and once again lead the field. But many of us are disillusioned waiting.

As to other hotel programs, I was this past year top level Elite at SPG, Hyatt, and Hilton and Gold @ Marriott. A bit ridiculous being in this many programs, especially as I pay my own way.

Marriott was due to attending a conference there early last January and I used a comp to match status. I won't be bothering with their program anymore for a number of reasons, chief among them that they only base status on nights and only M-F breakfasts are what're in the rules (though I stayed at many hotels that offered it 7 days).

Hyatt has really impressed me at the Diamond level, which I won't be again this year, but will work at trying to get back to. Was always treated superbly. I agree that their coverage is weaker, especially in lower-priced options outside of the US. And I've found their website very slow. However, they really seem to be trying to lift the game, and I'll support that.

Hilton has great coverage almost everywhere I've ever looked. I've gotten some terrific room upgrades (which has generally been my choice for amenity) and some not. I've found that many hotels do give breakfast for free, even if that's not my choice (goes with the room upgrade as an amenity choice) as a Diamond. And I've also been surprised at some of the rooms I've been given abroad as a Diamond, especially when I've chosen the points as the amenity. While I know I can choose room upgrade as an option, I think a Diamond member should never be placed in a no-view, tiny room, which has happened.

I realize, especially in an economically difficult environment, that hotels were getting squeezed the last 2 years, and that hotel owners were looking to save where they could. And so, like airlines, things like resort fees and breakfasts starting getting imposed or cut back. That didn't stop Hyatt from making improvements to their program.

Indications are that things are improving this year. All the more reason for SPG to step up and keep pace, not to cut back and nickle-and-dime. One would think that the idea in an improving market is to do more to attract those venturing out again.