UA Millionmilers radically devalued

Hello There! Been lurking around and decided to pop in - heard about this forum from FT, decided to join in on the fun, nice to meet everyone. As a fellow MMiler, and someone who has been following this case closely, we will all see how this plays out. There is a lot more at stake than just lifetime promises. There is nothing in the law books if a company is liable for promises by marketing a program "if a customer does 'X', they will receive lifetime benefits 'a, b, & c'." There was a similar case (at the end of this post), but it was settled out of court, the company restoring the promised lifetime benefits.

Dearest Photonerd71m, I think this thread has a few more laps until this is all done.

There are more opinions to go around as to what will happen. Class-actions are a funny thing - and a very specialized part of law. However, the process will go as follows:

United was served the amended complaint last MONDAY. They have 20 days to respond, this Monday will be 14 days and the following week, 21 days. They will most likely file a 30-day extension or a Motion to Dismiss. If they ask for an extension, they will get it, but then in 30 days, 99.9% chance UA's lawyers will file a MTD. The lawyers for the Plaintiff will file why it should not be dismissed...back and forth (6 mos maybe!), then the judge will determine if it is class-actionable.

If the judge decides it is, then the real work begins, ALL PMUA MMile Flyers automatically will be included in the class action. United will have to send a correspondence to every PMUA MM informing them their rights to opt out. This is not for a cash settlement, but a restoration of UAs original promise. Then discovery begins and it's a very slippery slope for UA because everything will have to be disclosed surrounding the entire subject.

If the judge decides it's not class-actionable, then at least the effort was made - the Plaintiff may re-try the suit. We all can give our different opinions on these forums, I certainly have, but ultimately it is up to the judge.

Whatever happens, this isn't going to go away unless the judge decides...hopefully this will go all the way to a jury.

If UA decides now while the suit is going on to terminate the MMiler program, this may end up causing them a lot more problems. If the judge decides against plaintiff, then UA could get rid of the MMiler program, but again, what happens to the lifetime promises it made to their customers? Take a look at the Midas case below. Can UA cancel the MMiler program? Possible? Yes. Probable? No. It will just add to more legal issues and many unhappy customers.

This has been beaten to death on FlyerTalk so I will not get into opinions and the such. Time will tell, plain and simple. Let's see what happens, will be interesting.

SIDENOTE

Another lawsuit parallels the UA case, http://www.docstoc.com/docs/89413489/FILED# which I thought was very interesting - it was filed in March 2010 and by October 2010 a settlement was reached - only EIGHT months! The benefits were extended until 2015, a period, I assume, when most would have been on to a newer vehicle.

Well, Midas ended up settling - which may or may not be telling of what may happen with the UA suit. However, it is eerily similar to the "Silver Wings" fee-based lifetime membership UA terminated after the merger. Here is the Midas settlement:

http://www.topclassactions.com/laws...news/833-midas-lifetime-oil-change-settlement

We shall see how it all goes down...

UrbaneGent,

Welcome to MP. There are many of us that are paying attention to this case.

Welcome to MP, the friendlier alternative to FT.

It's too bad for Midas they didn't know about UA's strategy and tactics before the class action suit was filed against them for reneging on their "Lifetime Lube-Oil Plus" program. It seems that all they had to do was change their promise of "lifetime oil changes" up to four per year to one oil change every Leap Year and add a free annual car wash to the program and they'd be home free.

I too will be watching the progress of the class action with interest.

Bolding mine.

And I respect your opinion. When I have a differing opinion on a subject, I like to think that I'm able to express myself nicely, and not in a condescending way. The typical reader is much more accepting of a difference of opinion when presented in a dignified manner.

Agreed!

What is the topic here anymore?

Is it possible to suggest that the premise of this thread - that the MM program was "radically devalued" - is preposterous and false and still be allowed to post? Or are we embarking on a journey of groupthink in the hopes of encouraging many to unify their thoughts on a single path?

I certainly hope the latter is not the case. A discussion where differing viewpoints are heard should be encouraged, not muted.

And a discussion where fresh ideas and new information is offered up is certainly better than random "hey, check this thread out" posts which offer no new value to the discussion.

I am only condescending when people are condescending towards me. I enjoy a good healthy debate/discussion as much as the next guy, but on this topic we will just agree to disagree. Some of you think this argument has merit and many of us think it is baseless.

Whether one is interested in this case or not, the majority of us can agree that we all know this case is going to get squandered in court. Then UA will pass down the costs they will incur fending off this absurd lawsuit to the customers [more likely via further MP program changes to reduce liabilities and costs].

The entitlement and self-centered thinking by some MMers is just dumbfounding to me. Behavior like this is why airlines are continuously trying to water down the FF programs. Maybe 1Ps should sue UA for reducing the bonus miles from 100% to 50% without giving them a full program year's notice [since at the time the published benefits states if they fly 50K miles in 2011, they will earn 100% bonus miles in 2012], 2Ps should sue UA for taking advance E+ booking away from them, etc. DL customers should sue DL for converting SkyMiles into SkyPesos and proportionally compensate them for the steep inflation of SkyMiles. I should sue UA for tacking on fare restrictions to my SWUs/GPUs, which now costs me $2000-2500 more annually to use them with no guarantee my upgrade will clear.

Wake up and smell the coffee, the world does not revolve around you and the airlines are here to fly you from point A to B safely, reliably, whilst offering high and *competitive service standards.

I understand many of you are upset about the changes to the MM program and you feel alienated, but really there are more important things in life worth fighting for and protecting than the MM program. There are some changes post merger that I am not happy about and some changes I am happy about, however, I chose to appreciate the fact that I am fortunate to have the means to travel [whether for work or pleasure], experience many things that many people will never have the opportunity to experience, etc. I prefer to appreciate the finer things in life instead of pouring my energy into something so materialistic and not very important in the grand scheme of things. YMMV and our priorities are probably different, but this kind of action makes me sad that I live in this country sometimes.

*Unfortunately, the that part has been ruined in the US on many levels, but many airlines outside of the US still does a very good job providing top notch service.

Interesting point of view. I can only speak for myself, not for "the majority." I do happen to know a number of other PMUA MMs who are not satisfied with UA's decisions in this matter. Some of them have posted here or FT once and some haven't posted at all because of unpleasant comments.

"Behavior like this is why airlines are continuously trying to water down the FF programs..."

IMHO the paradigm shift that seems to be occurring is simply due to UA's believing the changes will result in more profit. Were we all "over-entitled?" Perhaps. IMO UA should have the right to change its loyalty program, its fares, its planes, etc. as it wishes. The only issue that concerns me is the lifetime benefits that I believe UA promised me for flying a million BIS miles before the merger.

It's been interesting to watch the arguments shift here and in the FT threads. First the "defenders" of UA argued that no lawyer would take such a case, that it would be laughed out of court, etc. (The latter, of course, may still occur).

This has progressed to "blaming the victims" - and specifically the plaintiff who has sued UA - for "spoiling everything" for "the rest of us." If there are "more important things in life" - and I agree there are - why worry about that contingency?

"...this kind of action makes me sad that I live in this country sometimes..." That is indeed sad for you. I infer you're unhappy about the perceived "materialism" of Americans, and maybe you oppose class action lawsuits on principle. I don't know if you can understand that this comes across somewhat to me (again, I only speak for myself) as "laying on a guilt trip..." as we used to say back in the 60s.

IMHO nobody need worry about UA passing the legal costs along, any more than worrying when accepting compensation and accommodation for a 24-hour delay of an international flight, as I recently did, that it will raise everybody's ticket costs. UA is a large corporation and inevitably includes in its budget funds for legal contingencies. The legal costs of a case such as this would be a proverbial drop in the bucket. UA, like any other large company or public institution, is a defendant in many suits at any given time. It's a cost of doing business.

Furthermore even if this complaint were to proceed to trial and even if a jury decision years from now required UA to honor the lifetime benefits some customers (including me) believe they were promised, the costs of PMUA MMs to UA would be the same as they were pre-merger, along with their pre-budgeted legal fees of course.

To me this now boils down to a legal argument over contractual issues and the scope of alleged "lifetime" promises made by one party to another. In that way it's almost boring to a non-lawyer like me and I still don't understand the emotionalism displayed by those defending UA's actions, although your comment about it making you feel sad to live in the U.S. sometimes gives me some window into your thinking.

Applies to the other side, too, IMO.

May this be resolved in way that honors the loyal customers who believed, invested $ ,committed time and travel as well as brings recognation from UA. That way to wholeness,good fully honorable business for all- once again.

Linking to WA's blog entry which links to PDFs of United's response.

Thanks alot for that. Not awhole lot of meaningful information- seems like parrying.

Well, the goal of a plaintiff is to keep as many balls in the air as long as possible. The goal of a defendant is to knock as many out of the air as possible.

I suspect United's filings will knock nearly all the balls out of the air, but I was surprised at some of the lack of inline cites unless that's typical for that court's filings.

FF programs are becoming the victims of their own success. In 1987 as a Bronze Elite (bottom level) at CO I received a letter indicating that I was in the top 1% of their flyers. In 1997 I received another letter indicating that as a Silver (mid-level) I was in the top 3%. In 2005 UA indicated that 15% of their flyers were Elite. Einstein was once asked what the most powerful force in the universe was, his response was "the power of compound interest". The success of FF programs clearly also brought a compounding of the costs associated with them. What began as a simple loyalty program designed to give good customers perks that cost almost nothing has changed into something much bigger that has to be managed or there will be too many of us expecting what cannot be delivered.
I think ultimately that the lowest level(s) will continue to be managed down or the barriers to each level will be raised. I suspect that UA will also find a way to bring down (future) MMers to lifetime silver if they raise those barriers.The promises made to PMUA MMs should not have been made. PMCO only promised Silver.

Funny how the stock has dropped 38% suddenly.

Lawsuits, labor concerns, merger costs, unhappy customers and rising oil prices. Wall Street gives it a mostly thumbs down for now as earnings and margins failed to meet expectations. I do not know of a single airline merger in history where there was a smooth, positive transition. There is so much noise in the numbers that it would be difficult to get projections right.

Over what time period has it dropped 38%?

From the 52-week high on May 31 it is down roughly 25%. http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=...n;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;

But hardly 38% "suddenly" from anything.

For anyone comparing to the rest of the industry, DAL is down 21%+ in the same period (http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=...n;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;), LCC is down 15% (http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=...n;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;) JBLU is up 4.4% (http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=...n;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;) and ALGT is up 7%+ (http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=...n;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;).

Must mean that Allegiant is best, right.

To be fair that 25% drop is mostly in the last couple of weeks, so somewhat sudden. Not 38%, and not out of line with industry norms though.

We actually bought some Allegiant stock awhile back and made a tidy profit on it. I'm not enough of a gambler to bet on any legacy airline at this point, although the new UA regime may well turn it into a very profitable enterprise.

If they do, more power to them.

Ditto, though I'm still sitting on my position.

Airlines are rarely a smart long-term investment. Using stock price as a bell weather for most things is a strange thing, to be sure.

As a MM I will still earn yearly as I can fly with other airlines and still earn the status . I see know reason to fly UA intl at this point and may start flying DL or AA domestically if things get worse. But to chase 2mm or 3mm on intl travel on UA for the extra bennies doesn't seem worth it.

As I have always said, we want to have great respect, community & relationship wirh United or other preferred service providers in our lives.I did have a wonderful occurrence last week- while leaving DIA, I was waiting in line at the gate. I turned around,saw Oncology Associates on the shirt of the man behind me. we both heard a gate agent upbraiding a UA flight attendant and were both abit taken aback,as it was right in front of us,and clearly the FA hadnt done anything wrong. After speaking with him, he mentioned that he and his wife were then celebrating their 50 year anniversary!! He was enroute to CouerD'alene area to fill in,his wife along.They were seated in row 31,not even together..when we got on the plane,it seemed surprisingly clear that 3-4 1st seats were open. I approached the FAs and purser and suggested that I would gladly move ,if they wanted to honor those 50 years by seating the couple in 2 of those seats. They did it !!!! it was only a moment- well a short flight with 2 classes of service- but it made me feel that we were honoring the UA culture as well.Thats the kind of "do the right thing" that I fondly-and strongly recall happening periodically since late
1980s..kudos to those employees, the couple and the wonderful mentality that informed that small but huge action!~ May it be the harbinger of many UA tomorrows as well!!